Category: philosophy/religion topics
On a personal perspective, I’ve always found the why behind peoples beliefs to be just as interesting, or more so than what they profess to believe, or stand for. Hearing the story of what drew them in, made them think, what started the ball rolling is always fascinating in its way, when communicated well. I also know that asking why usually helps people find clarity in others rationales, as well as their own. So, let’s indulge in the curiosity I’m sure most of us have on this topic.
Note, I am not simply asking what you believe; we have a topic already in place that provides means to explain that part of this question rather well. Telling us what you believe will be integral in helping give perspective as to why you believe the way you do, but if you cannot add the additional perspective asked in the above question, it’s safe to say your contribution will be that of a well-meaning family member giving a deaf child an iPod shuffle for Christmas.
I hope this topic picks up some traction at all. I know a lot of people don’t feel comfortable with explaining the why and what of their situations, and I respect that. Though, if you’ve a mind, let’s try and build something interesting.
As many here know I am I loud proud atheist, however at one time I was a Fundamentalist Christian and creationist. I did the one thing that is frowned upon by many Christians, I never stopped asking the tough questions. One thing that really made me start questioning were the stories in the old testament where god commanded and often himself committed murder. I always wondered how a loving, omnipotent god could so easily be filled with so much hatred that genocide (and infanticide) would be seen as the only alternative.
So I continued to research and study the bible outside the bible as well as other religions and myths. I finally came to the conclusion that all deities are nothing more then man made entities and all religions are vehicles to control the masses through fear.
I have found in my studies that the stories in the Judeo-Christian bible and the Koran are actually taken from older religious myths, most if not all religions borrow their doctrines from one another. I had learned that most of the bible was re-written and changed many times through out it's history, first was around 300 A.D. During the reformation of the church, then subsequently many times after.
I think it's only fair that I explain that I didn't just wake up one day and decided to be an atheist. It was a very long and in some cases painful experience. I went through many stages from questioning my religion as a Christian to having the mindset of an agnostic and finally atheist.
My reason for atheism is a little simpler than some people's. I was raised atheist. well, technically I was raised agnostic, because my parents sought not to involve their beliefs in my life as facts. I tried to be a christian because I wanted to go to the youth groups my friends were involved in, and of course I tried reading bible verses and all that. for the most part, I just found the whole ordeal boring. why does all this matter? I kept asking myself. the ultimate question that people asked, though, was "don't you feel god's presence in this room, right now? He's here. he's all around us. he's everywhere, and he loves you more than anything". I started to wonder, well, if he loves me, why don't I feel that the way I feel the love from my family, or my friends? If he's everywhere, why don't I feel connected to him? why don't I feel like he's here like I feel that everyone else here is? When I gained more maturity, and a bit of confidence, I came to the conclusion that if I didn't feel his love, and his presence, apparently he wasn't as important to my life as some people claimed he was, and therefore, I didn't need to live as though he were. the last straw for me, and I remember it quite clearly; one night, I spent a very long time praying. I said, "god. if you're really here, if you really know me, then you should know how much I'm struggling. Please, give me a sign; just something, anything at all, to show me that you're really here. I'm trying to love you; I'm trying to embrace your love like everyone has been trying to get me to do, but I just don't feel anything. Please, show me you're for real". After all that thought and prayer, guess what I got? Nothing. It was at this point that I realized that if god really existed, he'd have seen my struggle, and given me something, even if it was just that little breeze on a scortching day, or that one ray of sunshine in a month full of stormy weather, but no. I couldn't even have that. So either he didn't exist, or he didn't want and value my love as much as people claimed. Either way, I didn't want a God like that in my life. between that evidence, or lack there of, and the puzzling fact that every time something horrible happens, no Christian can explain it with any more than the fact that God has a reason for everything, even when we're sure he doesn't., I opted for the lack of existence. I figured with what everyone explained about his power, and judgment day, he would probably throw out a bit of a warning every now and then if he did exist. I mean, if you've ever dove into the "Left Behind" series, there are so many warning signs. so many mishaps that only seem to affect the non-believers, and the Satan worshippers.
Wow. It's really nice to hear about this you two. Ocean Dream, I can honestly say I think I lived a great deal of what you've just described. It's crazy to me how some people can have these amazing experiences with a higher power, and others feel nothing. I admit I don't really understand that. I felt that way for years. I remember praying so hard one time. I don't even remember what happened, only that I was having a hard time, and had just visited a church with a friend of mine. I too just felt .... nothing at all.
Dracula, you've done something not everyone does. You've asked questions, pondered and tried to understand. That's more than some people ever do. While it saddens me that you've come to such a final conclusion, It's also quite understandable given what you've mentioned that you came to the one you have. I myself was always fascindated how similar so many religions are to one another. Where that has, it seems diminished your belief, it has for me been one of the reasons I do believe.
I was raised agnaustic, but had a few Christian and Islamic friends over the years. I went to church a few times, but I honestly got nothing from the experience. I remember wondering why people were swaying back and forth to music while holding their palms out in front of them during some of the youth activities I went to. As I said, I did try praying, but I never felt like I was being heard. I think I always expected this immediate warm fuzzy feeling, or a sense that someone was there beside me.
My biggest problem with Christianity of which I'm using as a basis was two fold. First, I didn't understand how there could possibly be so many differing beliefs about the same book. How could there be so many churches? SO many different translations? Second, why in the world would such a wonderful, loving God allow so many horrible things to happen to wonderful people, while at the same time allowing wonderful things to happen to terrible people? It didn't make sense. There was also the nagging issue of people putting their hands on my head and asking to pray for me. ANd don't even get me started about those who tried to heal my blindness.
I found so many reasons to disagree with religion. Yet I always felt there had to be more than just this sixty, seventy or eighty years on earth. The idea that this was it didn't make sense either. All these stories of afterlife experiences, ghosts, visitations, psyonic powers, miracles ... I figured they all had to come from somewhere. It's been my experience that most fiction is spawned from at least a grain of truth.
Eventually I ran into someone whho was a member of the Church of Jesus CHrist of Latter-day Saints. I'd heard of them, seen their commercials, watched the amusing origin story on South Park. I honestly had no idea what they believed, or why. But the more I learned, the more sense it made on an intellectual and in some cases scientific level. It explained where we came from, why we're here, and where we're going in greater and more vivid detail than anything I'd ever come across. Not only that, the way in which the church was founded, the fact that someone just as baffled as me could ask God which church was true, be visited by both the Father and the Son, find ancient records, translate them though he was not only young, but at the time illiterate, and bring to light so many things I always thought Christianity should be was amazing. Some people look at the Joseph Smith story and consider it completely absurd. There's a lot of anti LDS doctrine out there which is quite convincing as to why this couldn't have happened. And yet to me, the whole thing not only made sense, but felt right. Still, even though I felt that way I had no interest in actually becoming a Christian.
It took a few months for even a spark of interest to grow in me. I was invited to a baptism of a twelve-year-old boy. I went just for the heck of it. I was dating someone at the time, and I thought our relationship was wonderful. When I went to the church, I was astounded by the fellowship, sense of community and welcoming nature of everyone there. I can't really explain what happened, but I left the church questioning myself, my relationship with this girl, and everything I believed. When I told this girl I was interested in investigating the church further, she exploded. Likely it was out of fear. She had her own reasons for disliking God, and she had some very inaccurate ideas of the LDS church. We had quite the disagreement about it. I'd already been sincerely questioning our relationship which up until a couple days before seemed wonderful. Our argument spurred the ending of that relationship.
I began studying the Book of Mormon. I read it from cover to cover. I'd read the bible a little bit out of interest, but I was unfamiliar with much of it. Somehow, this book spoke to me. I felt the truth as I read. It wasn't until much later that I realized how the Bible and other LDS scriptures were all linked - a cohesive unit. I remember praying sincerely for the first time in a very long time that I would know the scriptures to be true. The promise made in both the Book of Mormon and Bible said with sincere intent and faith, an answer would be given. So I tested it. I don't know if what I felt was the Lord, or my own desires. But I felt it was right, and so I decided to be baptised. I'd learned a great deal about the church since thenchurch, and the Plan of Salvation since then, and it all made sense to me.
For the first few months I attended church, enjoyed the talks, but never fully felt the spirit like I thought I had. But then something happened which made me question once again.
Someone claiming to be a friend of the girl I'd broken up with emailed not only me, but most of our mutual friends. He said this girl was in the hospital, in a coma caused by a pregnancy issue. The condition did exist. I corrisponded with this friend, the girl's mother and after a few weeks, the girl herself. I recieved a letter from her father which spoke of a ritual performed by the aboriginal people of that area of Quebec where she lived. He asked that I come and perform this ritual with her. The whole thing sounded wierd, but I wanted so much to be responsible. This was something I'd done, and I wanted to make it right.
I found out the entire thing was a deception. There was no friend, no parents, it was her all along.
I'm leaving a lot out in order to keep this brief. It's wierd, and it makes me feel foolish. We went to a hotel room (a vergin place neither of us had ever been) to perform this ceremony. She tricked me into drinking a coctail containing over thirty sleeping tablets. It certainly did relax me, but nothing more. She attempted to glue me down -- yes, glue. Saying it was a particular sap needed for the ritual. Like a fool, i went along with it. I trusted her, even as, in my mind I couldn't quite equate what was happening with what she told me would happen. I'm not proud of how foolish I was.
In the end, she held a steak knife to my throat. The moment I felt the prick of the knife, my body was full of adrenolin. I escaped, went downstairs to the hotel lobby. Adrenolin was still running rampent because I wasn't sure who was on her side and who wasn't, since most people including the police were french, and I couldn't understand them.
Later, at the hospital, the nurses were amazed I'd even been awake at all. Adrenolin or not, before the knife kissed my throat, I should have been out cold. I can't intellectually convey my feelings after that. All I could say was that I felt something greater than myself at work. People will scoff at that perhaps, but the feeling's never disappeared fully since.
O my! that was you that happened to? I heard that story! I even know of the girl you're talking about, though I won't mention her name here.
Over the years I've continued in my scripture studies. I've saught answers to the difficult questions, and in doing so I've gained a greater understanding of God, who he is, who I am, and why things are the way they are. I've grown to understand on an intellectual, scientific and spiritual level that we are not alone; that there's more to our world than what's right in front of our faces. I'm not a perfect Christian. I mess up sometimes. But at times where I'm striving to follow his commandments, I feel his presence. it's not always the tingly someone's-watching-you feeling I always expected, but never in the last few years have I felt alone. I still have many questions. But I have seen so many marvels, experienced events mere coincidence can not explain. There are times when I still wonder, but I always find those questions answered. This is why I believe the way I do, and why I am so adamently willing to defend my faith. I seek not to convert people, but instead to show them that Christianity is not this evil controlling hipocracy some believe it to be. If I can make even one person consider a different perspective, I'll be content.
growing up, I was raised christian. my mom didn’t talk about god much, though. there were simply unspoken vibes I received implying belief in a higher power was the only answer to living a fulfilling life. however, as I was forced to attend bible study and church sermons that never made sense to me, I put on my thinking cap. instead of being the quiet girl everyone loved, I quickly became rebellious. in other’s eyes, at least. I didn’t hesitate to express extreme hatred for being forced to do something that felt uncomfortable. my mom didn’t care. she’d slap my butt repeatedly in public bathrooms, saying I wouldn’t have a choice as long as we lived together.
despite the fact I knew her family wouldn’t accept me if I chose a different path, I couldn’t help doing research. I looked into other sects of christianity, islam, differences between agnosticism and atheism, asking anyone I could for responses that’d hopefully lead to true fulfillment. I never got any. for awhile, I even thought paganism was where I was supposed to be. I read books, eventually coming to terms with something not feeling right overall. then, I really examined how harmful it’d be if I didn’t believe in anything greater than human beings. while it was a tremendous struggle to embrace due to society’s serious misconceptions, I’m beyond grateful I’m finally secure in atheism’s true meaning. freedom.
In my experience, the more vulnerable someone is, and the less strong a personality they have, the more likely they are to cling to a faith rather than question.
That's not a criticism; it's merely an observation.
From my own perspective, I grew up in a culture which is very god-fearing, where worship and God and prayer form a huge part of their lives. I had massive issue with this because I am a naturally inquisitive person, and I like to find answers to questions. But question was strictly discouraged - one must accept without question.
I think for me, apart from the science which essentially shows that the presence of a higher being is impossible, I have issue with what that higher being represents.
The bible states that we should love God, our father. It states that those who do not love him and who do not worship him will not have ever lasting life. In fact it even goes so far as to say that if you don't love God then you will be punished for not doing so.
Now, in modern day society, someone who imposes those kinds of sanctions on others is more commonly known as a dictator. In human society we actively oppose dictators, and see to liberate countries where dictators are in power. And yet people think it is perfectly fine to accept similar sanctions from an invisible higher being?
Moreover, isn't parental love unconditional? You love your children regardless of their faults; you may impose discipline but that is in order that they be better people and ultimately functional members of society, not in order to secure their love. And quite apart from that, love is something that has to be earned. You can't force someone to love you through threats and intimidation - that doesn't make it real.
So based on all that, I actually don't find the concept of God to be a very pleasant thing. And that's before we get to the bad things that happen around the world...
Claire, I totally agree with you that people who tend to cling to faith are usually very insecure. this doesn't mean you have to be atheist to be strong; it just means you don't believe *anything* without questioning it first. There are Christians who are very strong willed and confident, and to that I say, good for you. I'll never understand why you believe the way you do, even after I've seen people's reasoning, but if you can believe, and come to your own conclusions without giving up your own self-worth, you already have something a lot of people don't have, including some atheists.
very well said, Claire; I couldn't agree more.
People who cling to a faith also tend to be very thin-skinned about it. You so much as ask a question, point out a flaw in their belief system, and they start whining that they're being persecuted, disrespected, attacked, etc.
yes, I agree with that entirely. I guess it's far easier to claim victim status than it is to actually sit up and take note that perhaps all in one's belief system might not be as it seems.
Personally I think blind faith is scary, and dangerous.
It certainly is that, especially if you are an authority figure.
I was fortunate to not have the bible beaten into me growing up like some other folks. My parents never went to church or anything, but quite often I went with a friend and his family. Looking back, I realize now that I was just using christianity as a post to lean on at that time. I hated my living situation and school situation, I had to live at the school for the blind all week. So I sought something to make me feel better.
I suppose I've been agnostic most of my life, even though I did try going to church as a kid, mostly as a social outlet. I just never got it, never felt whatever emotional stuff I was supposed to feel and didn't understand a lot of it. I never hated god as regards why things happen, because I never believed god had anything to do with what happens to people. However after hearing about preachers who played rock records backwards looking for evil messages and other extremist behaviors, I developed a pretty hefty dislike for what people do in the name of the life form known as a god. That being said, when I was with an ex I got the opportunity to socialize with some folks who followed the pagan path and think those folks were pretty cool. Then again, paganism seems to resonate with a much more liberal world view from waht I've seen and I could be wrong. Still, never been all that religious and last year decided to just quit waffling and come out of agnosticism and rebrand myself as atheist.
Very commendable. I'd buy ya a drink if I could. Lol.
I feel I understand some of you better now. I can agree with much of this, except maybe science making the idea of God an impossibility....but that's a can of worms I don't relaly want to open in this topic. The most important thing is to think for one's self. The enxt is to not automatically assume someone who doesn't beleive the way you do can't think for themselves.
if you're truly comfortable in your beliefs, you shouldn't take issue with the fact some of us feel those who have religion in their lives don't think for themselves. that's our opinion, and has been proved countless times through numerous experiences many of us have had.
Likewise for you Atheists. In the end, it comes down to our experience and understanding.
but that's just the point I believe Chelsea was trying to make. We do not care in the least what you believe. It does not effect my life in the slightest. I care less about what you believe, than I do about what I'm going to have for breakfast on the Fourth of July. I do not care.
However, I am told all the time that people worry about me not believing. I had one person tell me she would sacrifice herself for me because she was ready to die, and I wasn't. the girl was seventeen and saying she was ready to die. This boggled my mind.
The only time we ever take umbridge with your beliefs is when they start to effect our lives and our rights. Start teaching creationism in school and you're effecting our rights. Start making people pray in public places and you're effecting our lives. Start making it so only christians can be elected president, (note, there has never been anyone who is anything else who has even come close, even a woman ran in the 1800's), and you are effecting our lives. Then we care about what you believe, because you're making it public. If everyone kept their beliefs out of other people's lives, then we wouldn't have a problem.
Lightning, for someone who clearly could care less about the beliefs of others (even though you seem to ignore all other religions aside from Christianity) you sure are quick to not only judge their beliefs, but to actively contend against them. Nothing anyone is saying affects your rites in any way. For that matter, public prayer doesn't encroach on your rites as an Atheist. AN atheist is a human being; no more and no less than anyone else. It could be said that banning religious study and prayer in public is encroaching on the rites of the religious. I say live and let live. We each deserve the freedom to believe in what we wish according to the dictates of our own conscience and experience. That goes for religious people who condemn the beliefs of others too.
This post was geared towards the how and why of belief, so why not contribute to the discussion in a non-contentious way for once? Nobody cares that you're an atheist. It's your own decision and one which you've apparently put a lot of effort into. So why not tell us the how, and the why as this topic asked? Like me you can apparently not stay away from these topics. SO tell us why?
blind guardian, thanks once again for proving the very point I was trying to make. for one who claims he's content to live and let live, you sure do have a problem with outspoken atheists. as has been said countless times, what you deem to be Cody and I lashing out is actually no more than our self-expression.
for the record, a great point was made. prayer in schools is most certainly when I start to care about people's beliefs. otherwise, it makes no difference to me how others live their lives. I'm focused on doing good cause it's right, not due to being guided by fear of how some supreme being in the sky will make me suffer if I do wrong by his standards.
I'll truly believe Christians, (and yes; I'm talking specifically about Christians since that's the country most of the posters here are currently living in(, mean what they say about "Live nd let live" when church and state are truly separate. No marriage restrictions on homosexuals that aren't given to the rest of us, no president should have to be Christian, and no "One Nation Under God" phrase in the pledge that students in school must recite every day, just to name a few. there's no law that says you can't go to church, so why should we have to live as though we were Christian, even if it is in very small ways?
Anyway, this isn't really the topic at hand here, so, I digress.
I would give you the how of my religion, but I have no how, or a religion. I live life in a way that makes life better for me and those around me. I don't live for some future life that I believe will happen. I've been given a life that I know exists, and I choose not to waste it. That's my how and why and everything else. I don't want to waste my life mumbling into thin air or hoping for seventy-two virgins, or anything else. I have one life, and I'm going to live it to the fullest.
Oh, and BG, if you look back at the list of postings, you'll notice that the first one who put anything directly contending another post was you. I just disagreed with your post because your post was about the system I agree with. So before you start pointing fingers, you might want to make sure you're not doing exactly what you're accusing others of doing.
To answer your question though. I bring up my atheism on these boards because they are discussion boards, that is their point. Without your beliefs, there would be nothing to talk about.
However, saying I don't care what you believe, and saying that I don't care about religion are two very different things. I don't care about your hair color, but I still have a favorite hair color. I don't care about your favorite food, but I still have foods I do and don't like. See the difference?
@Blind_Guardian I disagree about the so-called purpose in everything.
I have had it told me for fifteen years, since my conversion, but I just don't see it. There isn't a purpose for being in debt against your will: it's phone calls to banks that you, not a God or a priest or whoever, must make. There isn't a purpose to having a missing optic nerve, it's just a hardware failure.
Frankly, it sounds way too much like psychobabble and excuses for my taste. I would never tell someone that there was a higher purpose in why a gatekeeper robot wasn't protecting the server: I'd be a man and fix the thing. But I think that is the point: I'd be a man. not a god. Men fix things, gods say things about why things didn't get done. It's not imperative that we believe all things have a higher purpose.
I know there's that passage that says something to the effect of him working all things to the good.
But clearly what is so-called good is not what we would necessarily call sound. Ass an engineer, viruses are not good, cracks in buses on the motherboards are not good, struts on a bridge not working right are not good. If we thought they were good, we wouldn't do anything about them.
So I suppose He might, if you will make it for some greater good, in some parallel universe. My observation of things thus far: perhaps a deity will have said things, and certainly it can be said to affect the afterlife. But when it comes to things here, we're really the ones who get it done. A man will not settle for sloppy seconds and call it a higher purpose, if he's got even the work ethic of a slacker.
Where it counts, where we're at right now, I think that higher purpose business ends up being just an excuse for shoddy work or undone solutions.
The engineers who designed the craft that put Neal Armstrong on the moon didn't say that: they worked the project till it was done with spit and polish. And because of that science and engineering, that manhood and not godhood, that one of the crew could exercise his faith in space by taking Communion. If it'd been done like prayer, the thing would've blown up and people would be saying how that explosion must have served a purpose. I just don't see it as anything useful to anyone.
Leo, we're absolutely responsible for ourselves too. God doesn't want us to sit back and let him do all the worl. If people just pray and hope their problems will go away, and their space shuttle blows up there would have been a purpose in that. It would have happened because we obviously weren't ready to go to the moon. If we couldn't figure out how to calculate properly, to enjineer, to survive, we obviously wouldn't be ready to travel beyond the skies. As a loving father, you wouldn't do everything for your child. I mean look at the blind people for instance who have everything done for them from a young age. They get out on their own and know absolutely nothing. No, as a father you teach them. You show them how things work. You let them figure some things out for themselves. We teach our kids to cook, to clean, to treat others right. But sometimes simply saying "that element is hot, don't touch it", we have to sit back and let our child figure things out for themselves. Obviously there's limits to that line of thinking. You wouldn't want a kid drinking poison just to show them it's harmful, you'd take it away; you'd hide it and ensure they could never access it. So it is with God. Everything does happen for a reason. But sometimes that reason is simple; some people are evil; and some people make mistakes.
Yeah, but our parents don't throw us into a pit of fire to burn forever and ever when we piss them off.
You're right Impricator. Sadly the whole fire and brimstone dipiction of hell has really stuck. It's fun for fiction, but is it literal? That depends on who you ask. Some people believe it's literally a lake of fire where people's souls burn forever in endless torment. But there are other interpretations of what "hell" is. And how and why some people go there, as well as who those people will inevitably be.
Which is all the more reason for you not to believe religion. If you can't even pick if your god punishes you or not, you need to seriously sit back and question your faith. But will you, of course not.
Oh he just wants to sugarcoat it like everyone else these days.
Lightning, I have a lot more questions about my religion than you think. You assume I (and perhaps by extention others) won't question. I do. I just come up with answers that make sense to me. And these aren't guesses based on a hope that things won't be as bad as the fire and brimstone preachers say; there is a great deal of doccumentation and cross-referencing taken into account. You can call it whatever you want. Call it sugar-coating, call it misinterpretation. I believe what I believe precisely because I've taken the time to look into it, not out of a blind desire, or a "just in case" motive. To be honest, I have very strong beliefs about the nature of the afterlife we're all heading for. Those beliefs have a foundation, even if it's one you don't believe in. You can't read a technical or scientific journal and expect to understand everything it's talking about without actively trying to figure it out. THat means understanding the words, the context they're used in and the principles behind them. For all our belief in science and its principles (which I'm not denying the valididy of by the way) how many of us even understand the basics of how to put together a simple lightbulb? How many of us know how to build a computer? We understand that it works, but we know very little about it. The scriptures are harder for people without faith in them to believe, yes, but in that sense they aren't much different. So often we believe something can't exist just because we don't believe it. Just because we don't believe it doesn't mean it isn't there. The son doesn't need us to believe it sets in the west for it to be true. And I don't need any of you to believe my words, but I ask you not to automatically assume I'm not making use of my mental faculties either.
As to the freedom to choose our punishment, we do choose. Nothing will happen to us in the hereafter will be unfair or unjust. Everything is taken into account; our deeds, desires and motives. It's true those who choose to reject the gospel will have a harder time of it (and at this point I'm not sure quite how), but God doesn't hate them. He doesn't even love them any less.
You still have yet to explain how the physics, or lack thereof, of this "afterlife" works. You die, your brain rots. Your thoughts and memories are gone. What does that leave us with?
the difference between building a computer and having the faith in a religion that would be required for one to go to heaven is that the first is straightforward and explainable. If you find someone who actually knows how to put together a computer, they can tell you exactly how to put it together. If you find someone who tells you, "put that piece there", and you ask why, and they say, "I don't know, just do it". Then you have found someone who doesn't know how to put together a computer.
In religion, if you ask why, the only answer you'll get is, "that's just the way it is", or, "that's what the bible says", or, "Don't ask questions". I can explain to you why a computer works, I can't explain to you how the so-called perfect word of god can be so full of mistakes and yet still be called perfect. And what's funny is, neither can you, and you're the one defending it.
Interesting ideas on the hell aspect, Blind Guardian.
I do know that the deterrent lake-of-fire portion of hell was first brought to us by Socrates - before Christ, but Greek thought has played a major part in modern Christianity. His perception was precisely what Cody is talking about, a form of manipulation, or making the masses behave.
On the contrary, if hell is chaotic and has no good at all in it, I can see how it would have devolved into a fiery mess. After all, if we leave your house with no intervention, no maintenance, no assistance of any sort, it's likely that decay and even fire will ensue. I don't know which group is technically right, either the Fundamentalists and Socrates, or the mormons, but I'm not overly eager to find out either I'd rather actively pursue going the other direction if I have a choice.
@Imprecator I have all the same questions you have regarding the physics of that one. Is this a parallel universe we're talking about?
It can't possibly be literal as all the carbon gets recycled into new life forms, meaning your carbon is technically made up of carbon used by preexisting life forms. So to bring it all back, as it were, even if there is a giant blueprint containing all the DNA characteristics stored someplace, is quite unlikely. But the parallel universe theory and other similar theories would indicate there are aspects to even the natural realm that challenge some of our fundamentals. In short I have no idea, but knowledge is not finite.
You can explain the aspects of religion too, Lightning. The only difference is it's hahrder to see the results. it might not have been the best example, but hopefully you (or someone else) got the idea. .
To be honest, I don't know all the aspects of the afterlife, or how they function. I know that for those who pass on, they go to one of two realms; call them spirit prison, and spirit paradise. They are essentially spiritual realms which are, I believe on a slightly different plain of existance than our own. I don't really know how to explain it. They can interact with us, and us with them to a point, but I don't know the parameters of that interaction. I myself have only ever felt impressions of those around me. I feel I should mention I felt many of these impressions well before I joined the church. There are numerous stories, especially in our Temples where there have been visitations of a sort. I don't believe all of them, but there are plenty of people I have good reason to trust who have stories of their own. My wife is one of them, and she's far from an unintelligent person. History has also been full of stories of ghosts, demons and other things. I'm sure some are fiction, or embelishments, but I'm also willing to believe many are true.
When we die, Our souls which contain our personalities, memories and attributes leave our bodies. I don't really know how this transpires, because we all know the brain plays a significant part. It's a hard concept to grasp. But just because we're limited in our udnerstanding doesn't automatically mean it's impossible. This isn't gospel, but I consider the brain merely a repository for everything we are. it can influence our behavior and affect our personality. But the body is the vessel for the soul, not the other way around. Going back to the computer analogy. You can have volumes of data and software which is designed and coded perfectly. But you put that software onto a computer with faulty hardware or other limitations, it might not function properly. Try it on another, it will. When we die, that soul and all it contains is unbound from the limitations of the flesh and it goes to one of these two "realms".
In this spiritual state, we have a perfect understanding of everything we've done. We remember everything we've learned, and we retain our strengths, weaknesses, cravings, habbits and desires. We come to understand, through instruction on earth, and in the hereafter all the gospel is about. We still retain our free will. We can choose to accept or reject what we learn. Spirit prison is a state of instruction where we are taught the principles of the gospel. It's called "hell" because, as I understand it, we realize all the terrible things we've done. We have a greater understanding of ourselves in the grand scheme of things, and that knowledge is, for some of us, terrible to bare. So it is a sense of torment. I don't think it's a physical place as we understand it. Leo's idea of some kind of paralel or higher demention might not be far from the truth.
Spirit paradise is similar, except we are responsible for providing instruction to those in "hell". It's a rest from all the cares of the world.
This isn't the end of our progression. I don't know how long we remain in this state; I don't know how time passes there. But eventually, after the second coming of Jesus Christ, when the world is under his thousand year reign, our spirits will be reunited with our bodies, which have been made perfect. We will be justly judged according to our thoughts, works, desires and hearts. If we've led a wicked life, whether we've accepted Jesus or not, we'll be judged accordingly. Likewise if we've lived a good life, we'll be judged accordingly. there are three states of existences we'll inhabit after this, according to our faith and deeds.
I admit I'm not the greasted in explaining things. If any of you are truly interested in what I and my church believe about heaven, hell, and the preexistence, I invite you to take a look at the www.lds.org website. it holds our basic beliefs, as well as a lot of in-depth material. The "gospel principles" manual might be a good place to start, because it outlines everything we believe quite well. I've gotten flack for posting this before, but I believe if you want answers, go right to the source. That website is the source. I'm not trying to convert anyone. But I'd like to hope people might get a better idea of what a less mainstream Christianity believes.
And where in the body is this "soul" located? What is it made of? If the brain is just a repository, why doesn't the soul take over lost brain functions when the brain is damaged? In other words, what's the basis for believing in this stuff? And please, don't give me the usual, "well it's what the book says, so it must be true."
when I've made poor decisions, I know right away cause of how I feel inwardly; the same applies when I make good decisions. I don't need some higher being to sit me down and say, "ok, now, according to my standards, this is where you failed/succeeded". so, in short, if you need a higher power to tell you whether you've done good in this life, there's something seriously wrong. it isn't hard to be aware of, really.
BG, you just said that you can explain religion, then you followed that sentence by saying that you didn't know three times. That my friend, is what we call a self-contradiction. if I were to say, "I can explain to you exactly how to make a cake, and why it works". Then I were to say, "So we put the flour in, I'm not sure why we put the flour in, but this cookbook says so" I have contradicted what I said earlier. Basically, you don't know all about the God you worship, or the religion you worship him in. However, I can pretty much garrantee you that you will not, when you reply to this, admit that you may possibly be wrong, and that we may be right. You won't say, "Yes Cody, there is some possibility that you could be right and I could be wrong. Its entirely possible that God doesn't exist at all and I've just wasted my life following the rules set down by a fraud in the 1800's." I would put money on you not being able to say that and mean it. That, to us, and this is the basis of our disagreement, is pure and utter idiocy. If we don't understand something completely, we dismiss it.
Now, whenever I say that I'm always asked, "well do you completely understand how the big bang happened", to which I say no. However, I don't need to understand it, whether it was a big bang or a little bang, whether we were sneezed out of the nose of some giant green frog, I don't care. It really doesn't effect my life right now. I know the world exists, and that's good enough for me. You can't claim that.
You can't say, "well I don't get this aspect of God, but its not really important to me". Everything is important to you, because every tiny aspect of God effects your life. Its not the same with me.
as for reading your beliefs, I don't dismiss your beliefs based on what they contain. I dismiss them because they were made up and disproved in the 1800's. They were made up by a man who had been convicted of fraud on more than one occasion, and they contain claims which have never once been substantiated by any scientific, archeological or historical evidence. we can trace the history of human habitation in north america all the way back to the land bridge. There are no lost tribes of Jewdaism anywhere in there. No hebrew writings, no hebrew weapons, no hebrew boats, no hebrew towns, no villages that strangely lack any pig presence, (which is a major sign of a hebrew village in archeological terms). We don't have any of that in North America, simply because we didn't have hebrews until the 16 Jews that came over during the first colonization of North America from England. That is why I dismiss your religion.
I can absolutely admit that I don't know everything. However the information is out there for anyone who's looking to more than just criticize and scoff. It is, however important to me to discover. I sincerely believe in my beliefs, and though time and time again you ignore my reasoning Lightning, those beliefs are based on what I consider substantial evidence, and my own personal experiences. Do I question aspects of my religion? You better believe I do. But I still hold that they are true. You can be condescending and call that idiocy if you like. I'm not seeking your approval. I've seen this "evidence" you've spoken of denouncing my beliefs, and I admit it comes off pretty convincing at times. However I've also seen evidence supporting my beleifs, and that too is pretty convincing. There's also a lot more of it; from personal accounts to DNA evidence. Either it's true, or it isn't.Because of all the consistancies in the Book of Mormon, Bible, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price, either my church is true, or it's the most carefully researched, and painstakingly written piece of literature in human history. When I consider the direction it could potentially lead our species I can honestly say I don't really care if it's true or not. I whole-heartedly believe it to be true, yes. I can't deny my own experiences, and the promptings I've felt. No I don't hear voices, no I haven't seen an angel up close. And I don't really care. I'm going to believe this, and live a good life based on the precepts my church teaches. Nothing bad whatsoever comes from me doing this. I'm not doing it, as you were so quick to jump on, because I'm scared of what happens if I don't. I do it because I believe in it, and because whether it's true or not, it's made my life a whole heck of a lot better,.
As for Joseph Smith being called a fraud, I have no doubt this is true. In fact I've read many of those fraudulent claims over the years. They don't surprise me, even if maybe I haven't heard them all. He and the church he was setting up were openly hated by many people. There were even bounties on the head of any Mormon that was caught. It was okay to kill us; it was sanctioned by the American government even. We were driven out of our homes, forced to cross the country in terrible conditions, all because we chose a different path. Tell me this. At the time there were dozens of "Christian" churches, all with differing beliefs. Yet all of them were allowed to flourish. Individual family members attended different churches. So why would this one church nobody'd ever heard of before, created by a farm boy nobody had ever heard of suddenly draw such fatal attention to itself? Why would anyone even care? I was skeptical at first about Joseph Smith. I'll admit it's quite a story. But I've read the stories, I've read the testamonies and accounts of the people who lived back then. If it's all a lie, then it's one hell of a well-orchestrated one. And that begs the question why? Why would anyone go to the trouble to make up this elaborate story; write all these books themselves, then allow himself to be tarred and feathered and shot down like a dog from behind bars. What would be the point? Why would there be so many harrowing or miraculous accounts from all those people who trudged across the country in the dead of winter to a land where they could be free? Yes Lightning, I'm completely willing to believe Joseph Smith saw both God the Father and Jesus Christ in some form. I believe his prayers to know which of the many many churches was true was sincere, and yes, I believe he recieved an answer. Fraudulent charges? You better believe there would be fraudulent charges.
As for how the soul interacts with the body, I wish I had a concrete answer for you. Just because I don't however doesn't mean I'm going to stop looking, and doesn't mean it's automatically true. Personally I believe the soul is a combination of the emotional properties of the heart, and the mind. Not the brain, but the mind; there's a difference. There have been a ton of out-of-body stories delivered by all manner of people, so I see no reason at least some of them can't have truth to them. I remember when my wife was suffering complete renal failure she really began to feel a difference between who she was, and the body she was in. We accept quantum physics; we know it exists. I personally imagine the soul is a consciousness at a higher dimentional level. But yes it's true; I don't actually know the ins and outs of it. It could be something entirely different. But is it so difficult to fathom a fifth dimention, or a higher plain of existence? Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. We don't see the radio or wireless signals that allow for the exchange of data, but we know they're there because we use them. I'm perfectly willing to believe there's a scientific explanation for at least most of what goes on in religion, but I'm not at all sure we understand many of those principles yet. For example, the big bang theory. Even though many scientists aren't at all sure about it, it's entirely possible the universe was formed in this manner. One thing we know for sure is that when God created the world, he did so from unorganized matter. We know too that a day to God is at least a thousand years here on earth. So by our standards it took at LEAST six thousand years for the world itself to be formed. Then you have Adam and Eve, and all the other life that was on earth at the time. Nobody knows how long they were in the Garden of Eden. But it was only after they ate of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that they became as we are now. So that's all probably a lot more years. Is the world well over six thousand years old? Absolutely! Is it over sixty-five million years old? I don't see how, but I'm not about to deny it either.
I wasn't talking about people calling mormanism a fraud, I'm saying that he was convicted of fraud, as in before he made up his religion he was convicted of fraud, as in taken to court, repeatedly, and found guilty, more than once. As for why, reach in your wallet and pull out those little green pieces of paper, those are called money, and you are now holding his reason. Did he expect to get shot, probably not, did he ask for people's property, sure did. Did he tell his followers that he had a vision that told him marrying several virgin girls who were all extremely young was ok, sure did. Does that make him a sick and twisted pedaphyle who uses idiots who are willing to follow him without question and believe he has visions, sure does.
But is it so difficult to fathom a fifth dimention, or a higher plain of existence?
Fifth Dimension? Didn't they hit number 1 on the charts in 68 with that Age of Aquarius song? hehehe. As for out-of-body experiences, or near-death experiences, whatever you want to call them, it's not valid evidence for an afterlife. You can get the exact same feeling of being outside your body from taking certain drugs, or stimulating a certain area of the brain with a small electric current. It's been done in laboratory settings.
I've never heard any of this, Lightning. I'd be interested to see where you came about this certain truth. I'm not doubting the information is out there somewhere. I'd really really like to hope it's a fabrication made up by people only interested in defaming him. All I know for sure is it's extremely easy to manipulate information and make it extremely convincing. But if these stories are true, and the context doesn't explain it; if Joseph Smith really did do some of the things people like to say he did, then that is really unfortunate. I'd be very disappointed if it were true. But one thing I know for sure. Great men can fall. it happened to King David, and a few other prophets. Hell, it happened to Martha stewart. "IF" Joseph Smith ended up perverting the teachings he was directed to bring forth, that doesn't change the precepts and teachings of our books, or the words of our prophets today. I take more stock in the deeds of the church as a whole, rather than those which may or may not have been perpetrated by individuals.
I have to wonder BG, is there anything that could make you say that your church is wrong, or have you guzzled the cool-ade so thoroughly that even if I presented you with video evidence of every LDS preacher or priest or whatever you call them strangling puppies while raping an orphan or something, you'd still say that the church is good?
As for the evidence against Joseph Smith, there was a book written in the sixties by a morman appologist whose names eludes me right now, it was called "the myth makers". In this he claimed that if the charges against Joseph Smith, namely of glass looking were true, it would be the most damning evidence possible against the church. He wrote this mere years before the actual court records were discovered in 1971, which have the statements of those involved, including Joseph Smith. Those charges were then supplied to the Morman church, who basically swept them under the rug.
Now, glass looking, for those who don't know, which included me until I looked it up, is basically fraudulant treasure hunting. What he did, and he was found guilty and fined, was he went out and found something that looked like treasure, it could have just been an old bottle that he buried himself or something. Then he presented that as something historical and valuable and tried to get money from it.
Now, if it were anyone else, this wouldn't be that big a deal, some guy in the 1830's or so defrauding a farmer. Well, it just so happens that Joseph Smith then claimed he found some tablets that only he could transcribe, and those then became the book of morman. I sincerely hope I'm not the only one who thinks that sounds extremely close to glass looking.
I've read enough anti-LDS propaganda to last a good long while. There might be evidence to condemn Smith's actions. But if there is, I've never seen any of it that wasn't presented in a very bias manner. Were it true that he did these things, it still doesn't change the way the church operates now, or the good that I see coming from it. For me, there's more evidence supporting the Book of Mormon and Bible being companion texts, and the Church being the restored gospel then there is evidence against it. I don't doubt for a second there are records of that nature out there. But I've never personally come across any that convinced me otherwise. Not on my own, and, even though you seem so convinced I'm off my rocker, not from you either. Guess I'm just going to have to keep guzzling that cool-aid. I must admit it tastes a lot sweeter than the swill the mainstream world peddles. I've said it before and I'll say it again; if my church is actually wrong, it doesn't matter. Jesus still exists and will judge me accordingly. And if Jesus doesn't exist, I'll still have lived a good life, and will have instilled good morals in my children, and will have strived to be a good example to the world. Do I need to be religious to do this? No. But I am religious, and I will.
The fact that he supposedly would only let people touch the artifacts when they were wrapped up in cloth is cause for suspicion.
Granted. Though given some of the people he had to content with, I'd be surprised if he wasn't a little paranoid. There were a handful of witnesses, some who experienced visions, saw angels/demons and a couple who saw the Gold Plates, the Sword and the Urum and Thumum (the two seer stones). Certainly people, even many people can agree on a fabrication or an out-right lie. Though I don't see the point in this case. Like I said, there's compelling doccumentation for both sides.